And I Thought The Romance Section At the Bookstore was Bad!

Cruise

Yep, this is happening!

You can be well on your way to an Alaskan cruise with the stars of Twilight. 

Ok, to be fair, there are several theme cruise options out there today.  You can go with Kay Arthur to learn the Bible, Chuck Swindoll to listen to classic preaching, or Michael Smith to jam to Christian Music.  But a Twilight Cruise?

I'm imagining desperate girls looking for true love.
Hopeful boys dressed in werewolf garb trying to seduce the desperate girls with fake teeth and midnight howling.
A real life vampire vs. dog battle in the middle of the Pacific.
I mean really?  What is this?

Is the brand of Twilight really big enough to support things like a cruise?

Maybe so. 

Is Harry Potter big enough to throw a cruise to the Mediterranean?  Evidently so. 

Either I'm getting too old for this biz, or something's going on.  Anyone want to help me understand paranormal romance cruises?  Do we just go and all dress up like our favorite character?  Is this like the olden days of Star Trek Fans, and Star Wars Weirdos?

13 Comments

  1. “Is this like the olden days of Star Trek Fans, and Star Wars Weirdos?”
    Why are Star Wars fans weird but Trekkies just ‘fans’? Even if people like to dress up that hardly makes them “weird”. They just really enjoy the movies and get a kick out of dressing up. No different than all the Kanakuk parties where kids and adults are encouraged to dress up (there was a Star Wars theme, several time). Don’t hate!

  2. I’m sorry Jack, I didn’t mean to come across crass or crude. My term “weird” was only meant to mean different. Sorry, poor choice of words. Thanks for the correcting.

  3. Wow Andy, must say that I was a little taken aback by your blog post. Unlike most of your entries, this one doesn’t really focus on a “Christian Worldview” or faith.
    I’ve never read a “Twilight” book, but I do know that the author, Stephenie Meyer, is a strong woman of faith, and for that reason doesn’t include drugs, bad language, or gratuitous sex in her writings (which has brought her and the series media scrutiny). With all of the violent and sexually degrading literature for teens out there, why are you attacking “Twilight” (especially if you haven’t read the books)?
    This post really caught my attention, and I went to the actual website http://www.twilightfanscruise.com/ – I was surprised to see that there was no reference to this being a “romance” cruise – turns out it’s not that at all. It’s actually just a “fan” cruise, or a chance for people who like “Twilight” to see a beautiful part of our country (with some Twilight actors) and stimulate the economy at the same time. Maybe the heart logo made you think it was a romance cruise?
    Andy, I’m not trying to sound harsh, but this post just seemed really mean-spirited. I mean, you called Star Wars fans “Weirdos” – I’m not a huge Star Wars guy, but would probably feel hurt if I was one. I can remember one of my first years at Kanakuk (K7 to be exact) where we had a Star Wars dress up night – complete with the wookiee “Table-rocka.” (I read the comment above from Jack – were you at K7 as well?).
    Anyway, Matthew 7:1 came to mind when I read this. “Judge not, or you too will be judged.” I just don’t see any reason to go out of the way to put people down. We learned to edify and lift people up at Kanakuk – this post seems to do the opposite.
    I hope you don’t take this personally, Andy. I’m a big fan of your website and enjoy reading it. I just felt like I should comment on this post, and am interested in your thoughts. Thanks!

  4. Steven,
    Thanks for the comment. I find it interesting the comments on this particular post have to do with judging. But I digress…
    As I commented to Jack, I believe I chose a poor word combination. I’ve dressed up like Darth Vader for parties before, so I felt inclined it ok to use the phrase I did. I’ve also been at movies where people dress up in anticipation for a film, the latest was the ironman series. I meant no harm calling anyone out by dressing up or having fun. I think I explained that above.
    My real issue is this “teen paranormal romance” type of stuff. I posted a post a few days ago on the number of books in the bookstore that reference creature romances. This is a follow up.
    As for Ms. Meyers, there are lots of authors that have strong faith conviction, but Ms. Meyers is not one I would identify with.(better check out which faith she believes in.)
    Secondly, I have read the books, seen the movies, and commented several times on the dangerous ideas we are giving young girls as they look for a mate.
    And third, my last post on paranormal romance is anything but innocent. Check out the Barnes and Noble Section on Teen Romance, and you’ll see it filled with vampires, werewolves, and zombie like creatures. I hardly find that a healthy way for teens to discover romance or sexuality.
    Please know, I’m not trying to “put down” or judge here. We’re just looking at culture and commenting on the values it tends to bend us towards as people who seek a Biblical worldview. After all, the whole purpose of this blog is to help imagine how God would have us deal with Day to Day Faith issues.
    And as for the judging…from one Star Wars fan to another, I’m one of those guys. My kids have light saber fights, we build lego star wars sets, we’ve seen all the movies, and my 6 year old knows more about star wars trivia than most; so please know “weirdo” was only used in the most affectionate way.
    In any event….Thanks Steve.
    Love to chat more about Twighlight. It’s VERY INTERESTING as a phenomenon. Lots of good value stuff in there, but there’s a lot of misleading things too. I’m just blown away about how the paranormal/supernatural/witchcraft/vampire deal can evolve from a couple of books, to a whole section at Barnes and Noble, to cruises across the ocean. That’s all I was trying to say.
    Until next time “Live Long and Prosper.” NANOO—NANOO—I’m out.

  5. Andy-
    Thanks for clarifying. Like me, you know that Christ tells us to lift each other up–one of the best messages I ever learned at Kamp. I’m glad you meant ‘weird’ in an endearing sort of way.
    I would like to comment, however, that Stephanie Meyer is a woman of faith. Her Mormon beliefs, while different from our own, are no less valid and equally reverent. Though her religious views are different from our own I respect her all the same. In fact, some of my favorite books (besides the Word) have been written by people of different faiths (Zen Mind, Beginners Mind or to a lesser extent, Khalil Gibran’s the Prophet).
    I’d also like to point out that the horror genre is really nothing new. Like any genre, it experiences wanes or billows in popularity over time. Interestingly, death and rebirth are common themes in the New Testament. Lazarus is raised from the dead (and so is JC! :]). We know demonic possession and witchcraft are very real (Christ’s casting the demon Legion out and into the flock). I guess, at least from my perspective, these are very real problems that we SHOULD encourage our youth to look into, explore, and understand more thoroughly.
    We (and the Word) are constantly threatened by the forces of secular humanism and there is a coming battle between metaphysics and faith. I just want kids to be ready and aware. Truthfully, I don’t think any girl wants to fall in love with a vampire just like I wouldn’t really want to travel in hyperspace to an alien world full of scary monsters!
    God Bless brother!
    In Him,
    -Jack

  6. Jack,
    Thanks again for the comment. I LOVE the discussion, and for sure “As Iron Sharpens Iron” I love being sharpened.
    In no way am I one to stand in Judgment over Stephanie Meyer’s Belief system, that’s God’s Job. I’m just saying, if we’re going to use a belief system that is TOTALLY 180 degrees different from the Christian Worldview, we should make sure we point that out. (i.e. IN the core mormon faith, Jesus and Lucifer are equal brothers, God has physical sex with Mary to seed Jesus, God rules a planet star called KOLAR, and many many more truth issues.)
    No doubt there is truth in many sources, but this blog is dedicated to THE TRUTH and the LIFE.
    As for paranormal things in the Bible, I’m well aware of demons, people being raised from the dead, healings, and the like. You’ll see, I’m in no way nullifying those things, but rather; calling into question the validity we’re giving to vampires and werewolves in a romantic fasion. I don’t mind a good fiction story every now and then, but this is beginning to rule the thoughts and minds of young people, we need to help them see the abnormality of this phenomenon.
    I think with the logic you use that we should expose our kids to the paranormal so they can fight in the future is a kin to exposing them to pornography because we want them to know about sexuality. Asking good hard questions about what kids are reading is important, but how many parents are REALLY doing that. It’s a good idea, but really?
    It just doesn’t pass the logic test. I’m just saying, it’s something to look at, ask questions, and then wonder if it falls in line with a Biblical Worldview.
    The comment about girls wanting to fall in love with vampires….ABSOLUTELY THERE ARE SOME GIRLS LOOKING FOR EDWARD. Or, someone just like him. Just walk down the hallways of the local public junior high school, and you’ll find them. I’ve been in front of 70K teenagers this year alone, and I’m telling you what I see. I’m not making this up, or trying to use fear….this is a real deal.
    I think my point here is more that the entertainment genres in our culture do happen to shape our reality. We start wanting to emulate our celebrity role models, and that’s a real thing. Sometimes it’s a real hard thing to overcome.
    Again…appreciate the conversation. Let’s keep the sharpening.
    Oh…and there’s no fear here. You don’t have to hold back. I believe in honest discourse, so you don’t have to hide or hold back in fear of being P.C. Let’s duke it out. I love it!!

  7. Andy-
    AWESOME discussion bro! Don’t worry, I won’t hold back..
    The Mormon discussion is a wash…you are right, it’s God’s responsibility to judge, not yours or mine.
    BUT…
    My logic is the same logic exercised at Kamp. Do I think exposing kids to truth is necessary?! ABSOLUTELY!!! It’s the same reason that Kanakuk SIMULATES the brutal murder and torture of Christ, complete with fake blood, screaming, and murder. That’s something youth need to see and feel. Pornography is an entirely different beast–it is a bastardization of love and sexuality and I think that most kids to become exposed to it in their teenage years and it’s the responsibility of ministers or parents to properly explain those things and the impacts they have on a person’s soul.
    Again, Twilight is nothing new. 10 years ago Star Wars stuff was everywhere. 7 years ago it was Lord of the Rings. Last year, Avatar. It really is just a fad. We live (fortunately) in a capitalist society and retailers are out to make profit. Sure, we don’t have to agree or like the messages of what is ‘in’ but we shouldn’t ascertain that these fads have a bigger impact than what they really do. Ruling the THOUGHTS AND MINDS of our youth? Maybe, maybe not.
    As a marketing executive and lecturer, I’m well aware of popular trends. Millions of young adults read comic books–ref. the overall popularity in new films like Hulk, Batman, Spiderman, Wolverine, X-Men, Fantastic Four, Green Lantern, Captain America, Iron Man, et.al–are we saying that the mind’s of our youth are ruled and controlled by fads? Maybe, maybe not. I just don’t thing we should confuse ‘brainwashing’ or ‘mind control’ with people getting a kick out of popular fiction and the characters that go along with it!
    Do I think that kids are shaped by these things? Sure. But they aren’t always bad. I would be proud for my son to emulate Captain America and his patriotism. But do I also think kids will be kids (and will teen girls be hormonal)? Sure. 1963, Beatlemania. Every girl was obsessed with the shaggy-haired rockers. Harmful? Maybe, maybe not (I do love their music haha!).
    Anyways, all the best bud. Let’s keep it up! I don’t want to ‘duke it out’ though! We should laugh and talk as brothers!
    -Jack

  8. Jack, BRAVO!!!
    Thanks for the discussion. I appreciate someone who can articulate their views and continue to pursue….I can’t thank you enough. Good stuff here.
    Mormom…CHECK!
    Kanakuk…I’m still struggling. I’m struggling to make the connection between a ‘Passion’ like re-enacting of Jesus’ death and a paranormal romance obsession. I think I see where you’re going here, but remember, my point was not that we isolate our teenagers. The post I’m referring to a week or so ago was concerning the outright obsession with this Vampire/Werewolf phenomenon. Marketing ploy…ok.. I’m with you. Capitalists making a dollar…I get it. But I spend a lot of time trying to figure out what impact these ideas have on the real lives of teenagers, and when you see a section at Barnes And Nobel titled “Paranormal Teenage Romance” that is exploding with hundreds of books, it’s cause for a red flag, at least.
    Can the superhero idea be innocent…SURE!! We all like to go watch superheros save the world, but as you mentioned before, I don’t find myself jumping off buildings or trying to out run a speeding bullet. There are real people who have real expectations in dating relationships based on this mysterious romantic genre. Sure the majority of people will read, watch, or even cruise in fun, but I find when I talk with teens about dating…and I’ll include a plug here http://www.exposeonteendating.com…I find unrealistic expectations largely due to this pseudo-reality.
    Again, I’m all for fun, I’m all for make believe, I’m all for fiction and imagination, but I guess my question is simple “have we taken this thing too far?”
    The Marketing thing is a totally different question, and I’ll defer to your expertise on that matter.
    The LOTR reference, and the Avatar reference are PERFECT for this conversation. A closer analysis of Lord of the Rings brings us to the central theme of the series. This was a film based on good and evil and how those ideals battle in a fictional world. Sure it was a capitalists dream to have Frodo dolls and Gandolf costumes to sell, but the core message of the film was to fight evil at all cost.
    AVATAR, on the other hand, has been coined one of the most pagan movies ever made. Not only was the movie made by one of the most vehement atheists in hollywood, the outright worldview message was a mix of polytheism and humanism. I’ve got several resources that point out the difference, but I’ll save space here. If you’d like them…I’ll e-mail articles.
    On superheros…You’re absolutely right, it’s not all bad, as long as we’re helping people THINK about the worldviews they are picking up and buying into. Superman fights evil. the Hulk fights the inner change in himself, and also battles evil. Captain America is saving old ladies crossing the street. All good.
    But, I find people are lazy when it comes to being able to stand up and ask how the images we’re exposed to, the messages we subconsciously allow to mend our thinking, and the overall creation of our own worldview ideas we shape effect our behavior.
    I think Paul was right on, the more I explore the entertainment world. “Take Captive Every thought that enters into your mind.” It’s a good exercise to get into to ask Why we think how we think, and how we behave accordingly.
    In my exploration of the Twilight series, I just want teens to know it’s fiction and not something that should set the standards or expectations of a dating relationship. Sure, most can see the difference, but I know several guys who are asking, “How in the world can I be a dream man when Edward can save the girl every time?” Or girls who are looking for that “savior” in a boy at school. They end up giving up because there just aren’t any Edwards out there.
    Thanks for the discussion
    From One Beetle Fan to Another…
    Oh, and the duke it out reference…just a metaphor…(laughing all the way to the post button!)

  9. Hey Andy,
    Thanks for writing back, bro. That makes a lot more sense now (I had no idea you were such a Star Wars aficionado :). I’ve never actually read the “Twilight” books, just heard about them on the news (and know how popular they are when I go to the theater!). Didn’t mean to make my earlier post so combative sounding (as I realize when I look back on it).
    I see what you’re saying about the message that paranormal (or fantasy, as some might label it) literature sends to teens. Impressionable minds might not know a wolf in sheep’s clothing when they see one!
    You’re right on that these books are getting A LOT of attention, whether it be in the media or your local bookstore. I think it might be because they have become so popular with this generation’s youth, and stores are out to make a quick buck. It kind of reminds me of one of my favorite book series, “The Chronicles of Narnia.” This series’ parallels “Twilight” in that in includes witches, minotaurs, and other supernatural creatures, and it’s popularity has skyrocketed it into the public domain (video games, BBC cartoon series, and of course the blockbuster movies). Its author, C.S. Lewis, is also a person with strong faith. Even though the “Narnia” stories are (I assume) much different than “Twilight” there might be some common ground there.
    Speaking of the authors, I have a question that’s been challenging me for quite some time. I am aware that Stephanie Meyer is a Mormon, and I read the discussion between you and Jack about Mormonism. Here’s the skinny: When I was in high school, I went to a student council summer camp, and one night a group of us guys were up late discussing the tough issues. Someone brought up faith, and I’ll never forget that there was a guy (from Utah, nonetheless – REALLY nice guy!) named Jason who was Mormon. We had a lot of hard questions for him, and he told us that as a Mormon, he was Christian (he considered himself one) because he believed in Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior just like Protestants and Catholics. He also told us that it made him sad that there was so much public ridicule of Mormon beliefs in this country, and he felt that many people didn’t truly understand what it was like to be Mormon, or Mormonism’s core belief structure.
    Since then, I’ve heard some people say that Mormons AREN’T Christian, and others say that Mormons ARE Christian. To be fair, I’ve known some Protestants say that Catholics aren’t “real” Christians, and are disgusting “cannibals” because they believe in transubstantiation (where communion sacraments literally turn into the body and blood of JC). I can’t help but wonder whether or not Mormons are “real” Christians… I know that Mormons believe a lot of things that are different than my Baptist upbringing taught me, but then again there are Catholic and Orthodox beliefs that differ from mine (to be fair, there are beliefs of other Protestant denominations that are different then mine!). If we all believe in Jesus as our Lord and Savior, does that make up for all the doctrinal differences between various sects of Christianity? Or are some doctrinal differences just too much to overlook? It’s so confusing to me!!
    I guess here’s my question(s): Are Mormons Christian? Are Catholics Christians? Why or why not?
    Haha sorry this is such a long post, bro. I’ve given this concept a lot of thought over the years – what a perfect place to discuss and get some inspired answers to this difficult issue. If it’s alright, I’d really like to hear your opinion on this.
    Liftin’ it Up,
    Steve

  10. Steve,
    Hey man, GREAT DISCUSSION. Crazy to think the “cruise” article would lead to this..but I LOVE IT!
    I spend a lot of time exploring different worldviews/world religions and the majority of my post grad work is in philosophy of religion so I’m more than willing to shed an opinion here. Not to mention I’ve written hours and hours of curriculum to help teens navigate different faiths.
    Who are Christians?
    We have to be really careful here. The word Christian is so miss-represented in the world today, I might offer a different question…who is really a Jesus Follower.
    I believe as we truly “re-imagine the Christian Worldview” we have to take these issues serious. We can’t simply throw 2000 years of religious teaching down the drain to seem PC in the world, for even Jesus was somewhat of a revolutionary when it came to religious division.
    With that said, The Greatest Commandment is where I hang my hat (Matthew 22:37-40), and in trying to Love God and Love Others we must be delicate to articulate differences. I am a huge fan of the diversity of traditions of people who are trying to follow Jesus as seen in the Bible, but I’m also passionate about knowing who God is and how to most become the creation He created me to be.
    So with that said, I believe following Jesus is the Way we can find Salvation.
    Loving Jesus and following His message is the only Key to salvation found in the Bible. Romans 10:9, Romans 5:8, Colossians 1:15-20, John 1:14, Ephesians 2:8…several verses that will hold this idea under the text of the Bible. (there are MANY MORE)
    The question however is concerned with the differences.
    I have no doubt there are good moral Mormons, Catholics, Baptists, Lutherns, Presbyterians, Assembly and many other faiths, but a closer look at who they think Jesus is, reveals the core message they follow. And there are some real differences. Again, this isn’t to slam any denomination or faith practice, it’s only to identify which Jesus they believe in, and be honest in our understanding.
    Unfortunately, the Mormon tradition is clear about who Jesus is. He is the Real Brother of Lucifer (the devil) and holds equal standing in God’s court. According to the Pearl of Great Price, When God created the world and Adam and Eve Sinned, Jesus presented a plan of salvation, then Lucifer presented a plan of salvation, and God chose Jesus’ way. (You can read the battle for salvation in the Mormon book of Moses 1-4)
    The Bible says in John 1, In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God and the word was God. v.14 says “and the word became flesh and dwelt among us.” It doesn’t give any reference to a decision God had to make between Lucifer and Jesus.
    So the story is different. I’m not being judgemental other than just to point out the differences. With that said, I think the casual Mormon has to defend this text and help the rest of us understand which Jesus is the real one.
    There is also the reference to God once being like us, human, who now resides on a planet KOLAR and rules the universe from a physical location. (just another issue I’m trying to figure out how to reconcile.)
    Again, there’s no doubt there are wonderful Mormon people, but the essence of theology I find a bit more than different.
    As for The Classic battle between Catholics and Protestants, it is much different. The separation of the two happened in the 1400’s and was a response to offenses Martin Luther saw in the dealings of tradition. The argument isn’t so much about who is Jesus, as much as how do we respond to basic teachings of the church. I have wonderful brothers and sisters in both the protestant and catholic traditions that I believe follow Jesus in the tradition of the gospel.
    So I guess the real answer to your question isn’t which denomination we choose to practice our tradition, but rather; If Jesus is the true way to see God (John 14:6) then we have to ask ourselves which Jesus we are following. In other words, the most important question a person of faith can ask is “Who is God?”
    Thus; a careful study of the Bible, a practical practice of faith issues, and view of God that brings us closer to truth is the way to begin following God.
    In closing I might just say if we as Jesus followers are able to Love God with all our heart, soul, and mind and Love our neighbor as ourselves, then as Jesus said “The whole Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
    Who is going to be in heaven? The bottom line is only God knows. But in the meantime I will continue to pursue the story of God’s reconciliation plan for sin in the world by sending His only Son to Die and be resurrected to begin the process. I put my faith in the fact that Jesus is the only Begotten Son of God, and is the Way, the Truth and the Life. No man comes to the Father but through Him.
    That’s all I got for tonight, but would love to continue the conversation.

  11. Steve,
    Please pay no attention to falsehoods that Mr. Braner is spreading about the Mormon faith. Many of his statements are factually incorrect, and his arguments are commonly found in publications and speeches by anti-Mormon hate groups. For an example of his ignorance, please note that the “planet KOLAR” is actually known as as “Kolob” to Mormon believers. His half-baked ideas and obvious disdain for a fellow group of Christian believers should not be taken lightly. Oppression and acts of violence against Mormons in the United States have been well-documented throughout their relatively short existence.
    If you would like actual information about Mormon beliefs, I would encourage you to visit http://www.mormon.org where you can read about the LDS belief structure, as well as webchat with a qualified Mormon missionary. They will be happy to answer any questions you may have about the Mormon faith.
    As for you Mr. Braner, I am disappointed that you are spreading inaccurate and bigoted information about the Mormon faith. You are nothing more than a false prophet, and I pray that you might one day be enlightened.
    From one Christian to another,
    Mosiah
    p.s. Any theologian worth their salt would know that Martin Luther instigated the Protestant Reformation in the 1500s (1517 to be exact), and not the 1400s, as Mr. Braner advocates. Knowledge is power.

  12. Mosiah,
    WOW…I’ve never been called a False Prophet before. WHEW!!! Oppressive, Hatred, Those are strong words from someone who didn’t even defend his positions. I am one who loves people no matter what venom they spew, but this one was a little hard to swallow.
    It’s a heavy line for someone who obviously didn’t read my statements of difference in the article. I only repeat what my Mormon friends have told me and the books I’ve read on Mormonism, including your sacred texts, and the mormon.org website.
    No falsehood there, unless of course you would refer to the falsities of the Mormon followers like some Christians today. Then I concede I might have false information. But from the lips of your own…I only repeat.
    You’ll also see I was trying to show the differences in different faiths, and I think you would find it hard to say the protestant faith and the Mormon faith are the same. There’s no oppression there.
    For example:
    There’s no salvation by Joseph Smith in the protestant faith, He holds no place in the church. (difference)
    There’s no ability to reign on your own planet in the protestant faith (difference)
    There’s no story of Jesus showing up to the early Americas to spread the gospel message (difference)
    I merely hold to the teachings of the protestant church, and I certainly don’t condemn YOU. An excerpt from the post above… “Again, this isn’t to slam any denomination or faith practice, it’s only to identify which Jesus they believe in, and be honest in our understanding”
    So, sir, Why are you so afraid to have an honest conversation without using slandering remarks like ‘False Prophet?’ That is ridiculous. I am no prophet at all, only someone concerned with living an honest journey of faith in my own life.
    AS FOR YOUR CONCERNS:
    Sorry for the misspelling of Kolab. I do retract the Kolar reference only to add ‘Mormons believe God is on Kolab?’ But you Still have the same problem convincing me that it is the same story of God in the protestant faith.
    I certainly am not oppressing anyone. That’s the most ludicrous statement I’ve ever heard. If you want to believe in the Mormon tradition, I don’t care. You’re life is your life. But it is my responsibility, as a teacher of scripture, to point out the difference in the faiths so people can make well informed, clear decisions in the open, not like some of my mormon friends who hide behind the shroud of secrecy in their own church.
    There IS NO OPPRESSION. I have many mormon friends, and have dinner with many elders at my home. To say I am oppressive is an obvious jab at someone who might be calling into question differences you are afraid of answering. Mosiah, I have no issues with the Mormon church, or at you for that matter, only to open up an honest discussion. If you believe in deeds to get to heaven (mormon.org/eternallife) that’s great, but that’s not the Ephesians 2:8 I read in the Bible.
    Oh, and as for the Reformation, it began WAY before Martin Luther. 1517 was just the infamous thesis nailed to the wall. I just want to make sure our history is right.
    However; According to your doctrine written on the website, the restoration of the church didn’t happen till Joseph Smith was anointed a prophet. According to mormon.org, From the time of the apostles’ death, the church spiraled out of control till Mr. Smith brought it back to began restoring things back to the way they should. Therefore the Church of Latter Day Saints nullifies the Protestant Reformation and every other church from about 150 AD until about 1822 AD when the first vision hapened. (Just another little difference, not an oppression)
    I hope you can tap into the love of knowledge rather than the hatred you so quickly spent on my ideas. I welcome an open honest discussion of difference so those who are trying to search for answers have the availability of unbiased truth.
    AB

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